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Jolla in 2017

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MeowTseDong
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PostPosted: Saturday, 18.Nov.2017 16:54    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Reading about Zipper it looks like a similar system to computer games with micro transactions. You buy a set of "Zip tokens" and that becomes the currency within the system. Do you agree? Read the white paper on the Zipper site.

What I find is unclear is how developers get profits in "Zip tokens" to real money that you can buy you milk. Read the section "Rewarding application developers with ZIP tokens" and see if you can interpret it better than me.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Sunday, 19.Nov.2017 02:42    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Concerning the answer itself: if you read the log, you see, that they themselves admitted that this answer is not much better than cybettes was, but they claim that it is a totally different story now.

All I know is that Cybette said exactly the same in 2014 and then nothing had been done. So it's hard for me to trust them if their present statements are once again just as vague and evasive as three years ago, almost like copy&paste. The very same "something special we can't disclose, we can't say what and when, blah blah blah". Besides, didn't you mention that they also said "don't hold your breath"? So until I see any PHYSICAL progress, for me it is just the same old cr*p, i.e. they were forced to say something so they did, without a SINGLE detail.

Quote:

maybe they have problems with their special solution

If there are problems with the special solution preventing them for FOUR YEARS from launching the damn store, then an obvious alternative would be to go the NORMAL (the one everybody else has no problems with) solution instead, rather than keep struggling with the undoable special solution over the next four years. Especially that probably NO ONE needs anything special in this case, everyone wants a COMPLETELY NORMAL app store that simply EXISTS and works, and not much besides. Only Jolla wants it to be special, of which the only result so far has been its inexistence (well, yes, that's indeed something special).

Quote:

And: it's a different business to sell your goods/services from your store than running a store for 3rd party goods from different countries in case of taxiation.

It wasn't them who manufactured the accessories they were selling (e.g. leather cases or TOHs). And it wasn't even them who manufactured the phone they were selling. It was the Chinese who made it - Jolla had to order it, pay for it, import it from China to Finland, pay customs, etc., and only then sell it (and again: physically ship it to many countries by post/courier, which also involved all the shipping and customs paperwork). Please don't tell me that it was anywhere near as easy as selling downloadable apps online, where developers submit them and customers download them. In such case there's no import paperwork and customs, no export paperwork and customs, no shipping paperwork and burden, actually the only thing is VAT and income tax accountancy, which is what an average shop management backend can do automatically...

And in case of apps (unlike any other physical goods that you first need to buy yourself before you can start selling them and hoping that people will buy it) you don't risk any losses because you don't pay anything upfront. You first sell the apps and only then, monthly or so, you pay revenue share to developers and the required taxes on those sales. There's probably no SAFER business on this planet.
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PostPosted: Monday, 20.Nov.2017 13:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

desmo74 wrote:

My idea is something like an Indiegogo type thing...essentially if you're interested in an app idea you would then make a donation. The money would stay in an escrow account which would NOT be used for other [put your favorite swearword here] or to promise something and never deliver.


I said, that I vaguely remember something similar already existing. I now concretely remember: It is bountysource

Do you mean something like that?
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PostPosted: Friday, 01.Dec.2017 02:41    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about...
Thanks for the link.

D74
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Saturday, 02.Dec.2017 06:01    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Well, development for BB10 is nearly over. Not only the user base keeps shrinking rapidly but additionally the BB World store for months has been having serious issues with accepting payments (and there's no one to fix it because they fired everyone) so developers can't sell much.

I will soon have a lot of time which I might use to port all my apps (again) to SFOS, but due to no place to sell them I guess I will have to start porting them to Android instead.

As I wrote some time ago, developers moving away from the dying BB10 platform were Jolla's LAST chance to attract a large group of serious, experienced Qt developers. A few years ago they let thousands of Symbian and MeeGo Qt developers go away and now they're doing exactly the same with BB10 Qt developers. But that's the LAST such group. When they finally wake up in a year or two there will be absolutely no one left.
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MeowTseDong
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PostPosted: Saturday, 02.Dec.2017 18:37    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
I will have to start porting them to Android instead.


If you look at the Qt home page you will see that Qt supports Android. How well this "emulation layer" is and how much you need to adapt is another question. Qt for Android though, I think it you need a license and is not covered by the LGPL license that was initiated by Nokia.

Speaking of which as a new business model for licenses how about a store could automatically pay license fees depending on the amount of units you sell and automatically send those companies the cut. This way no huge initial fee is needed.
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PostPosted: Sunday, 03.Dec.2017 17:54    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
Well, development for BB10 is nearly over. Not only the user base keeps shrinking rapidly but additionally the BB World store for months has been having serious issues with accepting payments (and there's no one to fix it because they fired everyone) so developers can't sell much.

I will soon have a lot of time which I might use to port all my apps (again) to SFOS, but due to no place to sell them I guess I will have to start porting them to Android instead.

As I wrote some time ago, developers moving away from the dying BB10 platform were Jolla's LAST chance to attract a large group of serious, experienced Qt developers. A few years ago they let thousands of Symbian and MeeGo Qt developers go away and now they're doing exactly the same with BB10 Qt developers. But that's the LAST such group. When they finally wake up in a year or two there will be absolutely no one left.


Android world is very risky due to piracy nature. A popular app could be pirated in no time and unlike Symbian which at least still need hacked phone to install unsigned app, with Android it is could be much easier which i assume since i never use Android. This piracy is main issue holding me from going to Android and secondary is lack of Android phone. Right now i no longer have any revenue from Symbian and BlackBerry anymore.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Sunday, 03.Dec.2017 18:23    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

If you look at the Qt home page you will see that Qt supports Android. How well this "emulation layer" is and how much you need to adapt is another question.

Yes, I know that. But I'm afraid that it wouldn't be a good solution. People on Android are extremely picky, demanding and spoiled when it comes to apps. Even in case of free apps they complain about slightest details and give bad reviews for literally anything. So I doubt that they'd like something that doesn't look fully "native", almost certainly has some limitations compared to native APIs, and requires downloading and installing a large Qt runtime.

If my apps come to Android only in 2018 and need to compete with hundreds of millions of already existing and well established apps, I guess that they'll have to look and work just perfect to have any chances to be noticed and acclaimed. So, as much as I hate this Java mess, I'm afraid that rewriting everything in Java and native Android APIs is the only way to go. Sadly, even C++ isn't an option because C++ on Android is extremely limited, with no access to many APIs (it is good only for writing some small parts of the code requiring maximum performance, like e.g. some calculations).

I generally just hate to even think about having to learn all Android APIs from scratch and rewrite everything in Java, and to release my apps on that platform at all, but what else can I do if Jolla doesn't want developers to sacrifice their time to make apps for their OS instead...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Sunday, 03.Dec.2017 18:37    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

traxx wrote:

Android world is very risky due to piracy nature. A popular app could be pirated in no time and unlike Symbian which at least still need hacked phone to install unsigned app, with Android it is could be much easier which i assume since i never use Android. This piracy is main issue holding me from going to Android and secondary is lack of Android phone. Right now i no longer have any revenue from Symbian and BlackBerry anymore.

Yes, I know that, too. And that's another thing I truly hate about Android, especially after BB10 which was giving me a 100% protection against piracy.

Well, there seem to be some APIs so that the app upon installation and launch can verify in Google Play whether it was legally obtained from there, but I don't know how reliable they are. It seems to be very easy to remove/block them, e.g. by disabling the permission which allows it (which can be done by any user in an app like "Advanced Permission Manager" in no time, let alone skilled hackers), so the code of the app itself would need to be made to check if it works and prevent the app from running if that verification didn't take place. And that code would obviously need to be somehow protected against removal, too... What a mess.

The same applies to free apps with ads, where ads can also be very easily blocked, e.g. by removing the corresponding permissions or "activities" used to show them. In such case the app would obviously bring zero revenue.

Well, that's Android where you're one of millions of developers and Google doesn't give a flying **** about protecting you. And that's why I've never touched it until I was left with no other choices.
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PostPosted: Monday, 04.Dec.2017 10:56    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Zipperglobal seems to really be the way Jolla will try to enable monetization for developers and their apps.

They (Zipperglobal) announced it today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtQGu_6tErs

Or see https://zipperglobal.com/
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 05.Dec.2017 19:56    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Zipperglobal seems to really be the way Jolla will try to enable monetization for developers and their apps.

OK, so can anyone explain to me how exactly is it going to work? Because I understand sh*t from what's written there. And my life is already too complicated for any such challenges, so if it isn't anywhere near as simple as submitting apps to an online store for sale and simply getting paid an agreed revenue share for what they sell then I'm not interested.

I am just SICK of companies making dirty and dishonest business on my back. Google is a good example - since May or so I can't even reach their payment threshold to get paid for their Adsense ads shown on this site because almost each month they classify up to half of ads impressions as some mysterious "invalid traffic" (of which there is no trace neither in their traffic statistics nor in my own server stats) and just deduct (i.e. simply steal) up to half of the due revenue. For instance, in October out of ~70 PLN of revenue they deducted 40 PLN (i.e. around 60%!) as such "invalid traffic" with no explanation of any kind given and no warnings or notifications of any kind. If I really had any disallowed traffic of such percentage, they'd instantly threaten me that they would close my account.

The only TRUE reason of it is that they have a sh*tty algorithm that if a site that performs generally low has some noticeable peaks of impressions in some month (and that's obviously because in that month some better and more interesting ads are shown, so they receive more impressions and clicks in that period) then they automatically classify such peaks as "invalid traffic" and don't pay for it - without proving anything. Which is simply a ROBBERY. They refuse to answer any contact attempts and just keep stealing money. I am about to close my Adsense account because I am sick of letting them just ROB and ABUSE me in such an insolent way.

If they do such things with Adsense, I can imagine how they scr*w developers in Google Play.

Therefore, with such experiences (of which the above is just an example), I am interested only in simple, STRAIGHTFORWARD and CLEAN solutions which don't leave any space for any such dirty tricks. Only something as simple and clean as: they sell a copy, take their agreed share, pay the rest. I prefer not to earn anything than to have yet another company parasiting on me to the max possible extent while I can only watch how they take my money.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 05.Dec.2017 23:05    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Well, first and for all they did not mention any concrete way how to use that within their store. From what I understood, Zipperglobal provides ZIP tokens as a virtual currency just like bitcoins. Unlike Bitcoins, you can buy them for a specific exchange rate (probably not yet traded) and have virtual money to spent. The rest seems to be a service flattr like, so you can earn money by selling content (i.e. apps or music, or whatever) and you can pay for content by it. It seems as if they want to integrate it into the system with fingerprint security and thus make it very easy and comfortable. So it seems, as if they want to combine a lot of different services/ideas into one system. It doesn't sound like a bad idea. It's like paypal+flattr+bitcoins+wallet. Nothing totally new, but if well bundled quite attractive.

Those thoughts above are only wild guesses of course. A lot of speculation that just popped out of my mind on reading the whitepaper and watching the video...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Thursday, 07.Dec.2017 05:58    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Well, I do not mind or care what currency (virtual or real) people will use to pay for apps. The question is in what currency Jolla will pay developers. Because their tokens won't buy me food and won't pay my bills...
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